MBW’s World’s Greatest Songwriters series celebrates the composers behind the globe’s biggest hits. This one’s a rip-snorter of a conversation with Tobias Jesso Jr in which he not only talks about writing with Adele, Dua Lipa, Harry Styles and others, but also muses on how a changing industry might not be a great fit for him anymore, and how he’ll ‘hang up his hat’ if AI starts writing songs I like’ – which he rather suspects it will. World’s Greatest Songwriters is supported by AMRA – the global digital music collection society which strives to maximize value for songwriters and publishers in the digital age.
It was the biggest decision of Tobias Jesso Jr’s life.
In 2015, his solo career was taking off after years of false starts. His debut album, the offbeat cult classic Goon, was generating lots of buzz, Adele was his biggest fan and he had a lucrative world tour, including dates in Australia and Japan, all lined up.
He was finally in the place he’d been working for years to get to. But he still made the call to walk away, cancelling the tour and, effectively, his artist career, despite his manager’s best efforts to talk him round.
“He said, ‘If you don’t go on tour, we’ll have to pay the promoters and you’ll probably be paying the label back $20-30 grand for the cancellation’,” Jesso Jr says today. “It was a very convincing argument but I was like, ‘I know this motherfucker is a businessman and he’s right – but he’s not right for me’. And so I said, ‘I’m just going to trust my gut: I can’t go’.”
Tobias Jesso Jr, you see, is not like other songwriters.
The Universal-published writer has the A-list credentials to match anyone else in the game right now – he was the Grammys’ inaugural Songwriter Of The Year in 2023 and has worked with a who’s who of contemporary pop talent, including Adele, Pink, Harry Styles, Dua Lipa, Miley Cyrus and Lewis Capaldi – but he’s a true maverick, a free spirit who distrusts the inherent compromise at the heart of much modern hitmaking.
And that’s why he’s not afraid to make some very big calls indeed when it comes to his own career.
He’s always been this way. Jesso Jr grew up in Vancouver and was always convinced he would become a top songwriter – when he first heard Tracy Chapman’s Give Me One Reason it so perfectly summed up his feelings, he was convinced he had written it himself – but did precious little to make it happen.
“I didn’t want to sing, I didn’t need to play any instruments, I just had this delusional belief that it was going to happen for me,” he shrugs.
He also hated performing, while every time a band or project he was involved with looked like it was taking off, his gut would tell him this wasn’t the way it was supposed to work out and he would walk away.
Deciding he wasn’t “cool enough” for Vancouver’s indie scene, he tried his luck in LA, literally knocking on studio doors, but no one in California seemed to have got the memo so he returned home and, eventually, learned piano, if only to stop his parents charging him rent on his basement room.
That proved transformative and he returned to LA where, at the exact point he was supposed to have been touring Down Under, Adele “like an angel from heaven, came in to sweep me up”. They wrote When We Were Young in their first session together and, suddenly, Jesso Jr was the hottest balladeer in town.
He refused to fit that mould, however, and went out of his way to write songs that were different to what people expected of him. He was so successful that, a few years later, his management were positioning him to be the “the next whatever, to try to write all the pop songs on the radio”.
Again, his gut rebelled and he decided instead to just work on “stuff I like”. That “stuff” – including Harry Styles’ Harry’s House album, Adele’s 30 and songs by FKA Twigs, Diplo and King Princess – won him the Grammy and led him to his most recent projects with Dua Lipa (Houdini, which he co-wrote and which features his trademark laugh, is up for a 2025 Ivor Novello), Camila Cabello and Haim.
Some of his future projects sound a bit like wind-ups – a Goon sequel, books and multiple film projects, including a documentary called An Emotional Field Guide To Mushrooms, made with his former gardener – although he promises they’re for real.
It’s similarly difficult to know quite how seriously to take his expressed dissatisfaction with the modern, data-led hitmaking factory that, he feels, seems determined to undermine his slowburn, relationship-based approach to songwriting.
“Where 2018 was me at 100%, I’m probably at 60%,” he sighs. “How do you get me back to 100%? You’ve got to find me better things to do, that fulfil me in the ways that I’m finding fulfilment in these new areas of my life…”
So, while the music industry works on solutions to keep one of its very best creative talents in its ranks, it’s time for Tobias Jesso Jr to settle down in his LA studio to talk MBW through his thoughts on TikTok, producers and, of course, Adele…
ADELE WAS A HELL OF A WAY TO START YOUR SONGWRITING CAREER…
I know! I’d worked with [singer-songwriter] Angela McCluskey but Adele was the first time that I was like, ‘I’m a songwriter in this room and I don’t know who you are’.
It was the luckiest break of all time, but the opportunity did not go overlooked. I was taking it very seriously, I was preparing for weeks before I met her. The funny story is, I almost completely blew it, and I didn’t even know it. I’d never done a session before, so I didn’t know what the protocol was.
She came in, she was smoking at the time, and she was like, ‘Shall we go out to the garden and have a smoke?’ We stayed out there for hours just chainsmoking and talking about life and eventually she said, ‘Do you want to write a song?’
And I was like, ‘Oh my God, are you following my lead? I’m following your lead!’ But, at the risk of ruining the session, we bonded as friends and that became the lynchpin of my career; trying to relate with the artist.
I take that first Adele session, as improbable and lucky as it was, as a blueprint for success. Because I was well prepared, as I should have been, but none of my preparation made any difference. To this day, those sessions are my favourite – it doesn’t matter who it is, that’s my favourite blueprint.
I got lucky right off the bat, not only with one of the best singers ever, but she gave me the gift of, ‘This is a way you can write music’ and it felt inherently natural and normal to me.
And she was a loud voice for my career to get started as a songwriter. Like, even my passwords were Adele-related, because I give a lot of credit where it’s due and she helped me in a big way.
TO BE FAIR, YOU CLEARLY HELPED HER TOO – SHE HAS SAID SHE WANTS TO WRITE WITH YOU FOR THE REST OF HER CAREER…
I don’t know what part of that is from the creativeness and what part is from the friendship. I can’t gauge that.
Sometimes I feel like I’m on fire in a room and sometimes I feel like I’m completely dead and, with Adele, another pillar of the blueprint was realising that I can only work with somebody who has a strong opinion about what they want.
If they don’t know what they want to hear, if they’re indifferent, you’re going to go nowhere with me. Because I’m not going to add myself into the mix, I’m going to try and keep myself out of the mix as much as possible. But, when I’m with somebody who really knows what they want, we’re on fire. I feel like one of the best in the world when that’s happening, because my job is to heighten someone else’s ability and creativity.
“I’ve walked out of some of my favourite artists’ sessions going, ‘I wish I could help, but you’re past the point that you need me’.”
I always say, a Julia Michaels can go from no ideas at all to a song that’s 100%. I’m more the guy who’s like, you can come in at like 40%, and I’ll help you boost it to 100%.
I’d never want to say I can help somebody if I don’t think I can. I’ve had many sessions where someone’s played me a song and I go, ‘It’s great, it needs no work’. I’ve walked out of some of my favourite artists’ sessions going, ‘I wish I could help, but you’re past the point that you need me’.
THAT MUST BE TOUGH TO DO?
It’s about staying true to what you know; not just taking an opportunity because it’s enticing, but taking an opportunity because you’re like, ‘This is actually what I’m supposed to do’.
I know the difference between those two things; one of the strongest senses I have is going, ‘This would just be a money grab, but I want to do that, whether it makes money or not’.
YOU’VE BUILT A REPUTATION FOR COMING UP WITH THE QUALITY SONGS AT THE HEART AND SOUL OF ALBUM PROJECTS…
If I’m working for an artist, I am 100% there for them. I’m there if they want to write a hit. I’m there if they want to write a song about their boyfriend that they cheated on nine times and they’re upset with him [because] he didn’t open the door.
I am ready to write whatever they want to write – and that leads to a lot of album tracks because a lot of people going into songwriting sessions, especially in LA, are finding that most producers and songwriters are going, ‘Let’s do a banger’.
And artists who don’t particularly have the greatest belief in their own voice, they’re intimidated. That’s why the first thing you’ve got to do is the conversation. The trust. Where are you coming from, where am I coming from, are we on the same page, can I help you, am I the kind of guy you want to help you? Before you write a song, let’s figure that shit out.
“I’m not somebody who’s chasing hits, most of the people who are chasing hits are chasing songs that were written a year ago and trying to improve on them.”
I’m not somebody who’s chasing hits, most of the people who are chasing hits are chasing songs that were written a year ago and trying to improve on them. That’s not what excites me and I don’t value that as much as somebody saying something that comes from the heart.
Most artists now are like, ‘I want a big old hit’, which is different from five or 10 years ago when it was, ‘I really want to express myself like, fuck the label and these hits they keep asking for’. Now, artists are coming in at 18, 19, 20 saying, ‘I need a banger’.
It’s a different world and I’m finding myself getting a bit disenfranchised by it, if I’m being perfectly honest. I don’t love going into pop sessions as much as I used to; the magic has kind of worn off and I don’t know that it’s the most authentic thing that I should be doing.
These are the decisions that help me but they also plague me and I’m in one right now – am I going to keep doing this for four or five years because the money’s good? Because that doesn’t feel right. And so I’m having a bit of a crisis about it!
DOES HAVING BEEN AN ARTIST YOURSELF HELP WHEN YOU’RE WORKING ON A PROJECT?
It can be helpful, and it can also hinder you. If you really want to still be the star, it’s going to be a difficult road. To keep your job alive, most of your best songs are going to [go to] other people unless you make the switch, keep all the best songs for yourself and say ‘bye bye’ to the writing.
If you want to be a star and you’re a writer because that’s as close as you can get, I feel bad for you, that sucks. But if you’re the type of writer that likes having a side project you can release a few intimate songs on, then all power to you.
But at the end of the day, I wasn’t the type of artist that I work with. I gave up because it was just too tough.
I’m so glad when people aren’t the same as me because if I got into a session and was like, ‘Are you exactly like me?’ and somebody was like, ‘Yeah, I am’, I’d be like ‘I’m out of here, you’re not going to be successful at this!’
But most artists are going into rooms, meeting new people, talking for 10 minutes about their boyfriend and then spending two or three hours trying to write a hit song, and it hinders them.
Eventually, the novelty wears off and hopefully if the timing’s right, they meet me and I can be like, ‘There is another way’.
Maybe we need to write three meaningful songs before you realise what kind of hit you want. Wouldn’t it be great if you had the space to do that?
But the money’s not in the best art. The money’s in the art that’s going to sell.
IS THAT A DEPRESSING THOUGHT?
Yeah, it is, but then you think about the last couple of years. If I think about two years ago and a blast-off success album, I’m thinking SZA. When I’m thinking this year, I’m thinking Charli [XCX].
And that’s amazing, because you see people actually do have good taste, they’re just having the wrong things shoved down their throat most of the time. It’s depressing that the record companies or radio think they can just play a song every five minutes and it’ll become a hit when, in reality, we should be following the ebbs and flows of what people’s taste actually is. Good art always has a place at the top.
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT TIKTOK?
I’ve never been on TikTok. But people’s attention spans… If I go to work with a 30-year-old, we’ve got eight hours to write a song. With a 20-year-old, we’ve got two hours – and that’s normal.
You go in with Dua, you are there all day working, getting shit done – I know she’s still in her twenties, but she has the mentality her Dad [and manager, Dugi Lipa] gave her. And then you go in with some new artist just out of school and the attention span is just not there.
“My blueprint is being decommissioned, it does not work these days with young artists – it’s almost like it would be too much to ask.”
What is going to happen if people can’t even spend the time? My blueprint is being decommissioned, it does not work these days with young artists – it’s almost like it would be too much to ask.
I DON’T SUPPOSE AI IS GOING TO HELP MUCH WITH THAT…
I love AI! It’s really cool. I’m not a technical guy, but if AI started writing music that I wanted to hear, I’d hang up my hat.
I’ve had a really good run of songwriting and made all my dreams come true – if AI wants to take over, maybe I’ll just let that happen. AI is going to take over in a weirder way than most people are thinking. AI music’s going to be like dubstep was when it came out – you’re going to be like, ‘What the fuck is this?’
It’s like, if you compared our music industry to that of the ‘70s, how many ugly people are at the top of the food chain now? In the ‘70s, you’d be like, ‘Ergh, I can’t look at that guy but, fuck, listen to that song!’
AI’s going to have a lot of songs and a lot of them are going to be fucking hilarious; I’m going to love to listen to them.
IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT THE MUSIC INDUSTRY, RIGHT HERE AND NOW, WHAT WOULD IT BE?
I’ve been blessed to the heavens with the best job I could ever have expected from my life, so I have a problem complaining about it. But if I could change one thing, it would be to give songwriters more power.
There is no executive songwriter. There’s an executive producer. But there are people who would make a 10 times better album if they had an executive songwriter, rather than an executive producer – I believe that wholeheartedly.
Songwriters are coming from a different place, they’re coming from the seed of truth. Producers can interpret that and understand that and add value, yes. But it’s like the value of gold. The producers are making the rings, but is it 14 carat or 22 carat? A songwriter who’s like, ‘We’re going 24 carat on every song’ – watch a producer try to fuck that up! They can’t do it; you can dress them anyway you want, they’re going to be fine.
